Welcome

Bonjorn, Hello Amir, I'm glad to see you came here. Maybe you'll help us somewhat with Hebrew, your knowledge and help will be precious and highly welcome. Feel yourself at home! Shalom! A lèu, coralament, Capsot 27 de gen 2008 a 21:50 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting.

I rarely edit Wiktionary, because i think that MediaWiki is a good platform for an encyclopedia, but not very good for a dictionary. But if you need any help with Hebrew, feel free to ask me. Maybe i'll get interested in it. I've gotta admit that i got tired of editing the Hebrew Wikipedia lately, so that might be a fresh start for me, and i'll get a chance to study Occitan, too :) --Amir E. Aharoni 27 de gen 2008 a 22:30 (UTC)

I'm not really sure I answered all your questions. At first I thought there were just here for me to understand that what I said needed to be worked more and be more precise and deep, but right now I'm not too sure. Just let me know if you want me to tell you more about it! --Capsot

Well, it's very simple, really.

You say: "Aranese is the strongest player". Just explain why do you think that it is the strongest player - that's all. --Amir E. Aharoni 27 de gen 2008 a 22:32 (UTC)

Man, you really make it so complex. It's really hard to define... You see if you take into consideration the production of tools and so on, even though the Val d'Aran is so diminute a place it is way ahead of what's being produced. There's no real innovation, no real bilingual dictionary would have been done without the Val d'Aran, that appeared as a breakthrough! The other dictionaries were actually some kind of lexicons, we decided to bring Occitan to a next level, write down a phonetic transcription and introduce proverbs, expressions and a small grammatical and dialectal introduction. It is not perfect but we're kind of proud of it and I had to convince my friend Patrici to add these parts because we also were afraid of criticism (the favorite activity of the Occitanist movement and one of the major impediment to a sounder progression!) I couldn't define all this in just a line, you see how long it takes to write this to you just about the dictionary... It needs to be thought, rethought and well written and I don't really have the time considering it might still be considered insufficiently grounded... The important asset of the Val d'Aran is the official status of Occitan there that implies people educated in Aranese, books, cds, dvds and material in Occitan are growing more and more while a decline or at least a stagnation can be noticed in the French administrated area. Another important tool is the translating machine and many other projects are on their way. The evolution of the valley makes it an actor on water exchanges for instance and they ask to use Occitan as a language during the Colloquium and obviously the need of an interpret and since there is nearly nobody in the French state able to deal with Catalan and Occitan I was contacted. There is obviously an unseen pressure on the Occitan regions grouped within the Euroregion, Catalan is an unavoidable player and so might be Occitan soon since it's been recognized by the new Catalan constitution, the other regions can't play against it so they need to emphasize the Occitan asset just to make sure things go well and not turn their back on the Principat de Catalunya. I don't know if my explanation was very clear; Man I'll end up writing an encyclopedia about this thing just because I have written one line. I should be more careful!!! No, I'm just joking! The problem is that all this analysis is really hard to explain (I'm sure I've left so many other things...).

If this really is the first dictionary of this scope, then note it in the article about Aranese and in the article about Occitan, too. That would be a great proof of the importance of Aranese.

Is it really the first dictionary that was so big? --Amir E. Aharoni 27 de gen 2008 a 23:05 (UTC)

Oh, maaaaaaaan! Well, this will be the last comment about it all... sorry but I need to go to bed since I'll be going to work in about seven hours!!! It wasn't the bigger dictionary, Mistral's dictionary or many others are way bigger! It was a revolution in the sense it opened Occitan to other languages and delinked it from French, and also in the aspects cited before as transcription. It was moreover a great opening to other languages and scholars since people interested in Catalan could also notice Occitan afterwards.

I can't honestly write such things in the Wiki since I'm one of the authors of the dictionary and that wouldn't be fair; it's against impartial information and could be perceived as some kind of advertisement too, so no way! Maybe someday it will have its own entry, don't worry about it! The Aranese part is really small compared to the extent of the work, so I don't think it should appear on this article, it doesn't really make sense in my opinion. I already do not agree with some aspects of the article like the title: Aranese language... it should simply state Aranese, it's just a local speech, not even a subdialect of Gascon; the other thing is the ambiguous category: Gascon language, which is actually an Occitan dialect even though some minor separatist movements try to define it as an independent language. The other linguistic things in this last category are not really relevant, there's no such thing as Ribagorçan and the definition of the varieties of Gascon lacks depth and precision among many other things... Well, sorry but I have to go, have a good night and when I get some more time I'll try to answer all your other questions. Hope my replies will be shorter otherwise I won't be able to help much in the Wikiccionari! Take care, de còr e d'òc, Capsot 27 de gen 2008 a 23:26 (UTC)

If you don't like the name "Aranese language", you can call it "Aranese Occitan language" or something.

If you find any information any information that is wrong, be bold and correct it! Of course, do your best to provide sources. I don't have an opinion, because i really don't know the subject.

For example, in the article about Ribagorçan i see that it mentions several books that are written in it. If it is wrong, correct it! --Amir E. Aharoni 28 de gen 2008 a 07:13 (UTC)

Hi, oh Maaaan, don't you think I've got enough work, do you want me to die from overexhaustion (my professional duties and the Wikiccionari do not seem to be enough!). I haven't slept enough yesterday so I feel a little blurred. I mean there are other people in Linguistics writing in the Wikipedias. Well, just to make you understand some aspects of what I was saying just take a look to the links of the article, you'll see they will bring you to Ribagorçan Catalan (Catalan version) and Ribagorçan Aragonese, articles which seem to be pretty accurate, I've just had a quick look at it. I'm not Batman or Spider-man or some other superhero trying to bring back justice or truth where it should be, my time is limited and I made some choices, I told you before and I hope I won't have to repeat it again and again and again. I just followed the links to the "Aranese language" thing and saw then the Ribagorçan thing just as I had seen previously some "Ariegese" and other monstrosities... Well, need to go back to class now, have a nice day! Capsot 28 de gen 2008 a 09:37 (UTC)

Adieu Amir

Well, nice to see you around again and I'm real happy you've decided to give us a hand. I'm afraid I won't be able to contribute much now since my wife and children have come back but I'll try to give you some piece of advice (if I can) and let you know some of the minor intricacies of the Wikiccionari. Well, one of the things that helped me a lot was visualizing the contents of the articles so you can get a good grasp of the conventions. The Wikiccionari has constantly evolved and I hope it will go on improving. First the language is noted with two letters, I think Hebrew is he so it is

Ebrèu

, when you get to know more you can improve the model with a flag or maybe I'll do it if I get some spare time. If you modify some articles you should try to introduce Hebrew where it should appear alphabetically, that is before Spanish (es). Some entries need some redecoration we fix it gradually so don't worry! I would suggest you start with what I think are simple things (though I'm not sure they are) like the parts of the body; up to this moment we have "det" (finger), "nas" (nose), "cap"/"tèsta" (head), "pè" (foot), "man" (hand), "còr" (heart), "camba" (leg) and so on (I don't have much time right now, sorry! We'll talk more about it tomorrow. After the insertion of the hebrew translation in the Occitan article (which is the main article with an explanation), you can create the Hebrew article following the example under the next line.

I write here some kind of model (taken from a French model):

Ebrèu

Etimologia

[etymology]

Del latin dĭgĭtus.

Prononciacion

[pronunciation]

['dwa]

Nom comun

[noun]

doigt masculin [noun + gender]

Traduccions

[translation]

det ^(oc)

Derivats

[derived words]

digital
doigté

Categoria:Parts del còs en ebrèu he:doigt [Link to the Hebrew Wiktionary if there is such a word there]

I hope my explanations have been helpful. Have a good night and week and don't be shy if you need some explanation or help in any way, feel free to leave a message. Take care and enjoy your stay here! Sure you'll do a great job and become an expert in Occitan! Capsot 9 de feb 2008 a 21:05 (UTC)

Literary thingies

Hi Amir, I hope everything goes well for you. I'm really glad your interventions are growing so well and I hope they will keep on doing so. By the way when you become more acquainted with Occitan if you ever decide to write a Hebrew-Occitan /Occitan-Hebrew dictionary just let me know, it would be a tool sorely needed and I might be able to find some people to get in touch with, so you may consider it when you get a real nice grasp of the language. About the Literary thing, well by now I haven't given much thoughtn you can simply write it this way Lit., that should be good for now. Have a great week, de còr e d'òc, Capsot 12 de feb 2008 a 08:57 (UTC)

Well, I'm really impressed, you're really working hard... and well you've taught me a new notion, I didn't know what was a plural tantum... thanks! Well, right now maybe a pl could be enough, however if you ever think it can't be good enough, feel free to do just as you did (and well!) for the lit. notion. If it needs to be improved later, it will be. Have a good night. See you/A lèu! Capsot 12 de feb 2008 a 20:01 (UTC)

Middle dot

Hi Amir, as usual it's nice to have news from you. Well, I really can't help you since I'm typing with a French keyboard (you know the French exception thing!) and they're really different from the usual keyboards (they're Azerty and not querty and you go through a lot of pain to type accents...)! I don't really know where's the dot in this keyboard and I usually do it with some little "cut and paste" from pages in the web. See you, have a good night and great weekend!Capsot 14 de feb 2008 a 19:36 (UTC)

Hi!

Adieu Amir, I'm glad you're back; I thought you had been kidnapped by some Jacobine movements afraid that you could help Occitan grow too much... No, seriously I hope you're doing fine. Your previous additions were really good and I'm sure you'll add some more interesting stuff here. Have a great week! See you, al còp que ven, amistats, Capsot 20 de març 2008 a 09:33 (UTC)

About Aranese, Gascon and Languedocian

Hi Amir, I'm glad to see you around and know that you're fine. Well, I'm not an expert on Gascon nor Aranese but I'll try to give you a few tips. I think that Aranese grammar can mostly apply to Gascon and to a lesser extent to Languedocian and thus "General Occitan". You should keep in mind that the southern Occitan varieties share closer bond to the Iberian complexus while the northern and eastern varieties might be closer to French. The definite article eth/er, era -and so on- is not unique to Gascon, actually it extends from Bearn to the Val d'Aran and some northerner points within a diminutive fringe protected by the Pyrenees; it is usually considered as the original Gascon form while other varieties have taken lo or le from other varieties. I'll try to write more afterwards, Capsot 29 d'abr 2008 a 06:34 (UTC) To get to know more about Gascon (and its definite article), you should try to read Gerhard Rohlfs's "Le Gascon" in case you can find it in your university or Pierre/Pèire Bec's Les interférences linguistiques..." which contains some maps. The following link might also be helpful: http://oc.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_definit_en_occitan.

This issue about syntax is a phenomenon mostly found in Gascon (named expletiu) that gradually fades away when confronted to Languedocian (foissenc might also use it to some extent and it also exists within Catalan as an emphatic form: Que no hi és el Pep?, Que no ho has fet encara!). There are other similar forms such as se or e, they have no clear use to me but well they clearly indicate you're speaking Gascon... I don't really know what's the difference between mangi and que mangi when not emphaticizing! As can be deduced from what I was saying before, the use of que, because of its vicinity to Languedocian is very limited as an expletive though its use might be commonplace in Bausen and Canejan which are closer to its northern counterparts than the rest of the valley. "nescudes" wouldn't be right since you seem to use some "other" Gascon (feminine plural -as, las...) so it would be either "nescudas" or the more usual form "nascudas". The plural form -i applies only to masculine forms and essentially after -s or -sh (it's about the same in English when you add -es). I think Aranese has a neishudes form in that case, but I'm not too sure about this. Best wishes, al còp que ven, amistats, Capsot 29 d'abr 2008 a 07:54 (UTC)